DC vs AC charging and appropriateness/capabilities of each

DonTom

DonTom

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As if Sacramento needs another fast charger.

A thousand fast chargers do little good when they are all grouped together in the same area.

-Don- Auburn, CA (40 miles east of Sacramento)
 
All about type of intended usage. Fast charge 100+kw corridor travel is not really that needed in sacramento. Fast chargers are good, they are just too fast and too many at this type of retail location imo. I think its better to have faster level 2, 11kw+ AC would be perfect at these types of shopping locations and a few under 100kw DC. Residential urban charging is needed for folks in apartments and unable to charge.
 
tkmedia said:
think its better to have faster level 2, 11kw+ AC would be perfect at these types of shopping locations and a few under 100kw DC.
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Yep, agreed. But Sacramento has a lot of J-1772s as well.

Also, AC charging is much easier and more reliable than CCS DCFC.

-Don- Reno, NV
 
few place have 11kw+ AC charging, mostly rivian waypoint and blink. I argue there is not enough public AC charging in most cities that are within walking distance of more dense multi-family dwellings. Most are at business parks, medical facilities, retail and gov buildings. not enough in neighborhoods, at parks, etc.
 
tkmedia said:
few place have 11kw+ AC charging, mostly rivian waypoint and blink.
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There are a lot of 8, 12, 14 & 18 KW Tesla Destination stations around here that can be used with a Tesla-Tap. Also, couple of 70-amp Eaton J-plugs here. But they also have the "Chargepoint" name on them, so I don't know what that is about.

But the 14-KW Tesla AC stations usually don't work well with a Tesla tap. They go into alarm after five minutes and then need to be reset every five minutes or so. Anybody know why?

-Don- Reno, NV
 
DonTom said:
There are a lot of 8, 12, 14 & 18 KW Tesla Destination stations around here that can be used with a Tesla-Tap. Also, couple of 70-amp Eaton J-plugs here. But they also have the "Chargepoint" name on them, so I don't know what that is about.

But the 14-KW Tesla AC stations usually don't work well with a Tesla tap. They go into alarm after five minutes and then need to be reset every five minutes or so. Anybody know why?

-Don- Reno, NV
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maybe those tesla ac stations are on 277v? one leg of 480v 3 phase power? A lot of teslas charge perfectly fine on that.
 
tkmedia said:
maybe those tesla ac stations are on 277v? one leg of 480v 3 phase power? A lot of teslas charge perfectly fine on that.
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While that is possible, I doubt if only the 14KW units will be on the one phase of the 277 VAC. Only the 14KW Tesla AC charge stations give me trouble with a Tesla Tap. And all of them do.

BTW, one thing I wondered about is the lack of J-1772's at most CCS and all Tesla fast chargers. Don't all the DC fast chargers already have the AC voltage for a J-1172 inside of them somewhere?

If there is any standard that every EV can use, it is the J-1772, even if slow. But still has a good purpose. For one thing, I own three motorcycles that can only charge with AC.

-Don- Reno, NV
 
its possible to do AC. Many chargers in other regions have AC charging on DC chargers. Usually its tether-less and have to supply you own cable, typically 22kw AC charging. While the DC portion has a cable. Sometimes you would see 3 cars on a single pedestal, 2 DC power share and 1 22kw AC.
 
tkmedia said:
its possible to do AC. Many chargers in other regions have AC charging on DC chargers. Usually its tether-less and have to supply you own cable, typically 22kw AC charging. While the DC portion has a cable. Sometimes you would see 3 cars on a single pedestal, 2 DC power share and 1 22kw AC.
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Interesting. Where do they do that at? Which countries or whatever? I have wondered why we don't do the same.

22KW AC is quite a lot of AC power. If that was more common, I would put another AC charger in my 2023 Zero DSR/X motorcycle. It now charges at 6.6 KW max on a J-1772. It has room for another charger and then would be able to do 13.2KW on AC. But for now, I am simply enjoying the extra storage space.

-Don- Reno, NV
 
usually available in any country that use type 2 mennekes cables Europe mostly. These types of charger are typically not on every pedestal, but usually a one per site "universal compatibility" pedestal. Typically has a Chademo and CCS2 cables and a socket for AC mennekes cables. Mennekes can connect to Type 2 AC or the Type 1 AC (J1772 yazaki).

btw Mennekes port is in the specs to the J3400 (Tesla NACS) standard for AC charging.
 
22kW AC charging requires 3-phase power, which is more common in Europe than it is here in the US (even commercial sites that 3-phase service would not typically route all 3 phases out to EVSE equipment). One vehicle (the Renault Zoe) even supported 44kW AC charging, although they ended up discontinuing that capability.

The tri-format charging stations (CCS, CHAdeMO, high power AC) did have dedicated AC cables: it was not a bring your own cable type of setup (at least the ones I saw). The "granny cable", as they know it, is really only suitable for lower power AC.

I think one catch with these high power AC charging is that you actually require three on-board chargers on the vehicle to get that power, so it does add significant cost to the vehicle, and likely the reason Renault backed off the 44kW option.

These days, with larger batteries and the use cases that fast charging is appropriate for, I think the high powered AC is no longer an appropriate solution. It was great in the era of 100-150 mile range vehicles where journeys were probably on the order of 300-400 miles and DC chargers were only 50kW anyway, but these days the expectation is to get 80% charge in 30 minutes, and with larger batteries, that demands much higher power than you are going to get by using AC charging.
 
I'm seeing an uptick in 24kW DC CCS chargers. These would actually probably be a decent fit for many retail locations.
 
rosier9 said:
I'm seeing an uptick in 24kW DC CCS chargers. These would actually probably be a decent fit for many retail locations.
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I don't think I ever saw CCS that low. Where are there such?

BTW, 24KW CCS would be perfect for my Energica motorcycles. The very max they can do is 24KW.

-Don- Reno, NV
 
they used to be more common with the introduction of the BMW i3. though you can find them in lots of places they are mostly associated with Harley Davidson dealers these days. They are pretty easy to install and dont require any or too much infrastructure upgrades. I was thinking of getting one myself.
 
I'm seeing new 24kW CCS installs by EV Connect at Ford dealerships. Specifically, Sioux City and Sioux Falls have these. I'm guessing there's a loophole in the Ford criteria where these somehow benefit the dealership.
 
rosier9 said:
I'm seeing new 24kW CCS installs by EV Connect at Ford dealerships. Specifically, Sioux City and Sioux Falls have these. I'm guessing there's a loophole in the Ford criteria where these somehow benefit the dealership.
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I wonder what the rating of this one is. Doesn't say on Plugshare. Are the ones at dealers normally open to the public for other (non-Ford) EVs?

But if more of the J-1772s could do at least 13.2 KW , I would put another charger in my 2023 Zero DSR/X motorcycle. It now has a 6.6 KW charger, but another can be added at the cost of some luggage space and a couple of K$.

-Don- Reno, NV
 
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