Tech charging question

[DonTom]

I suspect that would be the case, at least within a few percent. Nothing in nature is ever perfectly the same every time.

When in CV, will the battery charge in reality (let's forget the SOC indication here) in CURRENT be about the same amperage regardless of the beginning charge rate when in CC (at least down to a certain point where it cannot charge much at all)?).

IOW, the battery will accept whatever current it safely can in the CV phase, regardless of if we start with ten KW or 100 KW. True or false?

I hope you don't mind my silly questions; I just like to understand how such things work.

-Don- Reno, NV

 

[lpickup]

When in CV, will the battery charge in reality (let's forget the SOC indication here) in CURRENT be about the same amperage regardless of the beginning charge rate when in CC (at least down to a certain point where it cannot charge much at all)?).

IOW, the battery will accept whatever current it safely can in the CV phase, regardless of if we start with ten KW or 100 KW. True or false?

I hope you don't mind my silly questions; I just like to understand how such things work.

-Don- Reno, NV

It should be [roughly the same], unless there is a physical/chemical reason for it to be different (which I don't believe would be the case, beyond a few percentage points).

A recent EVgo YouTube video had a good analogy of the charging process which may help understand. They compared the charging process to letting a crowd into an empty theater. At first everyone just rushes in and grabs seats and the theater fills pretty fast. But after awhile, there are fewer open seats and it takes longer for people to find empty seats, so the flow of people slows down. This is actually a pretty good analogy, because when charging, the lithium ions need to find a site within cathode lattice. As the battery charges, there are fewer and fewer open sites in the cathode for the lithium ions to be stored.

 

[DonTom]

As the battery charges, there are fewer and fewer open sites in the cathode for the lithium ions to be stored.

But the slowdown at the end was never my question. At least, not exactly.

My question was why the slowdown exists for lows charge rates when the same battery is okay at a much higher rate when started with a much higher charge rate.

IOW, start the charge at 100 KW and have 20 KW at 95% SOC indicated. This is what I do NOT question at all.

But start the charge at 20KW and only have 5 KW at 95% SOC when above seems to prove 20KW would still be okay for the battery at that same 95% SOC. This was my only question.

But if it is only the SOC guesstimate that is causing the difference and the battery is still charging at the same current in the CV mode at the same real SOC (not what is indicateded) , it explains it all.

IOW, when more power is started with, the SOC% guess is showing a higher rate at the end of the charge, but it may not really be higher at all when charge is started with a lower charge rate. The battery current is at the exact same charge in both cases at the end of the charge. IOW, whatever the battery can accept as current when in the CV mode and both are really the same, right?

Another way I could ask this question is when at 95% to 99 % SOC indicated, just before the charger shuts off, is the CV voltage the same at the battery regardless if the charge was started at 100KW or 20 KW?


-Don- Reno, NV

 

[lpickup]

But the slowdown at the end was never my question. At least, not exactly.

My question was why the slowdown exists for lows charge rates when the same battery is okay at a much higher rate when started with a much higher charge rate.

I thought we were making progress and converging on an understanding, but maybe not. It seems like we've gone back a few steps to a prior hurdle.

The slowdown exists because of physics (or chemistry). It's not whether the battery is "okay" or not. It's simply how much charge the battery is willing & able to accept due to its physical/chemical makeup, at a given charger voltage. If the charging station is holding at 420V CV, the battery is going to accept less and less charge as it fills until at some point the current drops below a critical level and the BMS declares the battery "full" and terminates the charge session. If there is any difference in charge rate at a given TRUE (not indicated) SOC, at a specific CV, then the only difference would be caused by the physics or environment (e.g. temperature -- keep in mind fast charging a battery will possibly warm it up into its optimal range more so than a trickle charge) of the battery.

IOW, start the charge at 100 KW and have 20 KW at 95% SOC indicated. This is what I do NOT question at all.

But start the charge at 20KW and only have 5 KW at 95% SOC when above seems to prove 20KW would still be okay for the battery at that same 95% SOC. This was my only question.

But if it is only the SOC guesstimate that is causing the difference and the battery is still charging at the same current in the CV mode at the same real SOC (not what is indicateded) , it explains it all.

IOW, when more power is started with, the SOC% guess is showing a higher rate at the end of the charge, but it may not really be higher at all when charge is started with a lower charge rate. The battery current is at the exact same charge in both cases at the end of the charge. IOW, whatever the battery can accept as current when in the CV mode and both are really the same, right?

Another way I could ask this question is when at 95% to 99 % SOC indicated, just before the charger shuts off, is the CV voltage the same at the battery regardless if the charge was started at 100KW or 20 KW?

As far as I know, all BMS's will have the same CV voltage regardless of the starting SOC or charge rate or any other variable. That's not to say that in a lab somewhere they aren't playing with charging algorithms that do in fact adjust the CV dynamically to eke out a few less minutes of total charge time.

 

[DonTom]

The slowdown exists because of physics (or chemistry)

Again, that was not what I asked, but I think you answered the question anyway. Besides, I was NOT asking the question again, I was only trying to explain what my original question was to begin with, which was the difference in charge power shown between two different chargers started at a different rate when near the very end of the charge, with all other conditions matched.

The answer was what you already explained again in "As far as I know, all BMS's will have the same CV voltage regardless of the starting SOC or charge rate or any other variable."

My question was caused by my incorrect believing the SOC% was accurate at the end of the charge. It's only a guess caused by counting while charging. So there is no real way to get an accurate SOC % while the battery is charging in CV near the end of the charge. The battery is accepting whatever it can regardless of the charge power at the start of the charge.

If I do understand this correctly, it means:

I canNOT compare a charge rate at 98% indicated SOC when I start with a fast charge to a slower charge at 98% SOC indicated. The reason is the 98% can be a different true SOC in each, showing a higher charge rate at the end of the charge but it is meaningless because the SOC indication is not accurate.

IOW, in reality, in both cases, the battery is accepting the same charge in each case when the charge is in CV, regardless of what the SOC% says it is at.

If this is correct, I understand it all. But if this is incorrect, I am still missing something.

-Don- Reno, NV

 

[lpickup]

If this is correct, I understand it all. But if this is incorrect, I am still missing something.

-Don- Reno, NV

Just to be clear, I am only offering possibilities as to why you see what you are seeing. I cannot know for sure.

The one thing I want to make absolutely 100% crystal clear, is that I am 99% certain that the BMS is not doing something differently based on whether you started with 100kW charge versus 10kW charge. Any difference you see is simply the result of something else. It's definitely not a case of the BMS making some arbitrary decision about what's "safe" for the battery based on the different charge rates.

Everything else is just speculation and I'm offering different possible explanations.

If not knowing with 100% certainty what the reason is for the difference still bothers you, I'm afraid the only solution would be to take a graduate level battery chemistry course and/or find someone with a PhD in battery engineering to do some experiments on your bike

Otherwise you will have to be satisfied that it's probably one of the things I mentioned and it's not really important what the exact cause is, other than it's definitely not the BMS doing something different based on how the charging session began.

 

[DonTom]

Otherwise you will have to be satisfied that it's probably one of the things I mentioned and it's not really important what the exact cause is, other than it's definitely not the BMS doing something different based on how the charging session began.

Well, I am not sure of anything at all. But I was wondering if it is the program, not doing something different, but doing exactly the same regardless of charge rate. IOW, the program as well as perhaps the BMS lowers the exact same percentage in each case, when it has no need to lower at the lower charge rate. But based on what you said, that probably isn't what is happening because if the voltage is always the same when in CV as the battery takes whatever it can handle, then it isn't the program doing it, but the EV battery itself.

BTW, I asked this same question in another forum (for electric motocycles) and I received this as a reply:

"For the battery to charge, you raise the charge voltage above the battery voltage. The more the charge voltage is raised, the more current is drawn from the battery. At some point when charging at high SOC, your charge voltage becomes the maximum allowed voltage for the pack and cannot increase (This would be where CC turns into CV). Voltage cannot continue to raise and draw more current, so the current falls as the SOC climbs. The BMS could also request to limit charge current at high SOC to accommodate differences in cell voltage, to protect cells with a higher voltage from going beyond their designed maximum voltage."

Still seems to be answering what I did not ask. I never asked about why the slowdown near the end of charge, I only asked why the difference in the slowdown at different charge rates. The answer could be there is no difference, it is the SOC% just shows a different % near the end because of the difference in the speed of the charge rate at the start. IOW, the battery is accepting the same charge rate in CV regardless if it started with 100KW or ten KW. The battery will not change what it will accept when in CV just because it was started at a higher charge rate.

-Don- Reno, NV

 

[lpickup]

Well, I am not sure of anything at all. But I was wondering if it is the program, not doing something different, but doing exactly the same regardless of charge rate. IOW, the program as well as perhaps the BMS lowers the exact same percentage in each case, when it has no need to lower at the lower charge rate. But based on what you said, that probably isn't what is happening because if the voltage is always the same when in CV as the battery takes whatever it can handle, then it isn't the program doing it, but the EV battery itself.

BTW, I asked this same question in another forum (for electric motocycles) and I received this as a reply:

"For the battery to charge, you raise the charge voltage above the battery voltage. The more the charge voltage is raised, the more current is drawn from the battery. At some point when charging at high SOC, your charge voltage becomes the maximum allowed voltage for the pack and cannot increase (This would be where CC turns into CV). Voltage cannot continue to raise and draw more current, so the current falls as the SOC climbs. The BMS could also request to limit charge current at high SOC to accommodate differences in cell voltage, to protect cells with a higher voltage from going beyond their designed maximum voltage."

Still seems to be answering what I did not ask. I never asked about why the slowdown near the end of charge, I only asked why the difference in the slowdown at different charge rates. The answer could be there is no difference, it is the SOC% just shows a different % near the end because of the difference in the speed of the charge rate at the start. IOW, the battery is accepting the same charge rate in CV regardless if it started with 100KW or ten KW. The battery will not change what it will accept when in CV just because it was started at a higher charge rate.

-Don- Reno, NV

I do think we are more or less on the same page.

Just two more points to keep in mind:

There is no "program" outside of the BMS. The BMS is the only thing in control. When you say "program" you are talking about the BMS. There is not a second program controlling the charging process (other than perhaps the charging station's program which may cut you off because you exceeded a time limit, or an equipment fault inside the station itself, or some other reason not related to your battery).

And the "program" is probably a lot simpler than it seems like you are imagining. It literally just calls for a set CC current until the pack voltage reaches the cutover point, at which point it calls for a set CV voltage until the charge current falls below a set point, at which point the battery is considered full and it terminates the session. Extremely simple. Yes, Kia/Hyundai & Porsche are playing around with having tiered/dynamic CC values based on estimated SOC and temperature, etc. And there are safety protocols built into the program. And yes, at high SOC it may be doing a lot of things inside the pack itself to balance cells. But at its heart it is extremely simple. I would avoid trying to think of it being some complicated system that is actively trying to tweak things.

 

[DonTom]

There is no "program" outside of the BMS.

Well, my 2017 Zero SR has non-stock chargers that are programmed by Elcon. These are normally used for electric forklift charging. The program needs to be different to charge an EV motorcycle battery. Even the output voltage is different, which I think is set by the program.

Also, CCS runs a program. In fact, many of the broken EV-Go programs show they are running a charger program from Windows XP (IIRC) when they are rebooted. That is the program I am referring to. But I think I understand what you're saying. Maybe . . . .

During the initiation process before the charge starts, what is happening during that15 seconds or so?

Before the FW was charged in the CP CCS chargers, it would stay stuck in the initiation process on my Energicas. And forever. It would not time out and it would not charge. I left it in the initiation process for more than a half hour once and no change before I disconnected and gave up with it.

Is it the program that decides when to switch from CC to CV? I assumed that was in the BMS. I also assume it decides that by when the battery current gets so low at a certain point. Is it the BMS or program that decides the charge rate based on battery temperature? In the past, I assumed it was a complicated program and was one of the main reasons we have so many CCS failures. But perhaps not. What is the main cause of the failures? Is it something in the hardware?

I would think if the charger program was simple, we would not have all these FW updates and incompatibility issues. It seems to me it never ends.

-Don- Reno, NV

 

[lpickup]

Well, my 2017 Zero SR has non-stock chargers that are programmed by Elcon. These are normally used for electric forklift charging. The program needs to be different to charge an EV motorcycle battery. Even the output voltage is different, which I think is set by the program.

Right. My point is the program is extremely simple (as tends to be the case with a lot of things). If it had to change, all that needed to change was a few simple parameters.

Also, CCS runs a program. In fact, many of the broken EV-Go programs show they are running a charger program from Windows XP (IIRC) when they are rebooted. That is the program I am referring to. But I think I understand what you're saying. Maybe . . . .

Well yes, there is a lot of software at work. But let's limit the scope of the discussion to that which handles the actual charging process, and not the user interface, and payment systems, etc.

During the initiation process before the charge starts, what is happening during that15 seconds or so?

Every charging station is different, but there are probably three things that must be done that take some time.

One is doing a safety check of the path from the high voltage equipment inside the charging station to the inlet on the vehicle. I think this is usually done by ramping up the voltage on the cable and trying to detect any shorts to ground. If it finds any, it will immediately shut down. There are other safety and environmental checks as well (making sure connectors are properly seated and latched, etc.) but those probably don't take much time.

Second is negotiating with the vehicle itself, and by that I mean the BMS which is in control of the process. The handshake process should not take long, but sometimes it does. With Tesla Superchargers, for example, it happens almost instantaneously, but that's probably because they devised a very simple communication protocol, whereas the committee that designed CCS probably through all kinds of stuff into the negotiation handshake. Plus if there are communication errors or unreliable communication, it probably has to try several times.

And third, which would apply to Plug & Charge and similar setups is the authentication process to securely identify the vehicle to the charging station and then the charging station goes off into the cloud somewhere to retrieve the identify and payment method assigned to the vehicle. Obviously this step is going to rely on the internet connection available to the station, as well as the responsiveness of the server on the other end, which may or may not be fast.

I probably have the order in which these are done reversed, but these are the likely culprits in the delay you see before the charge commences.

Before the FW was charged in the CP CCS chargers, it would stay stuck in the initiation process on my Energicas. And forever. It would not time out and it would not charge. I left it in the initiation process for more than a half hour once and no change before I disconnected and gave up with it.

Yeah, likely got stuck in the negotiation process. If you've had the pleasure of trying to connect two Bluetooth devices together, you probably understand this. Granted, in your case it's different because it wasn't an intermittent fail, but an entire incompatibility. That's the kind of thing that can happen when the negotiation/handshake process gets overly cumbersome: it's prone to failure and even complete incompatibility. It will be interesting to see how well Tesla's experiment with opening up Superchargers to other brands ultimately works out. Will their relatively simple interface win the day (a la how USB is today) or will it prove to not be sufficient for all the fancy things that other car manufacturers may want to do over the connection?

Is it the program that decides when to switch from CC to CV? I assumed that was in the BMS. I also assume it decides that by when the battery current gets so low at a certain point.

Yes, the BMS is 100% in charge of the charging process. It "is" the program. Other than the charging station shutting down itself for whatever reason (it detects a fault in its own systems for example), the BMS is what is calling for everything.

Is it the BMS or program that decides the charge rate based on battery temperature?

The BMS, although there are really only two temperature related aspects to what the BMS is going to do based on temperature.

The first is when it's too cold to charge. Li-ion batteries cannot be charged below a certain temperature without damaging them. So the BMS will call for power from the charging station, but it will use that the heat the battery, not actually charge it. Once the battery is above a certain temperature, it will do its normal CC/CV thing.

The second is if the battery gets too hot to safely charge, and it will shut down the charging process. This should never actually happen in a modern EV with working thermal management, but in a car like the Nissan LEAF without it, it could cause the charge to terminate early. This is really just a safety mechanism though, not an active technique used to modulate the charge rate.

The one exception to this is the Kia/Hyundai & Porsche thing I've mentioned, which do dynamically adjust the CC current based on pack temperature. I do expect that technique to be more widely adopted in the future. But again, it's a pretty simple adjustment on the CC current. It doesn't happen near the end of the charge session when the power being delivered is naturally tapering and the pack thermal management should have no trouble keeping up.

In the past, I assumed it was a complicated program and was one of the main reasons we have so many CCS failures. But perhaps not. What is the main cause of the failures? Is it something in the hardware?

I saw an excellent post by someone on TMC forums with a pareto of CCS charging station failures. I don't know if this is anecdotal or if there was a report this came from, but here is a list:

• Broken CCS1 connector.
  • Mainly the latch, this is a CCS1 design problem.
• Failed cable cooling system. (Limiting the output to 50kW.)
  • Other companies go with air cooled cables.
• Failed temperature sensor in CCS1 plug. (Limiting the output to 50kW.)
  • Bad design in Huber+Suhner cables. (Old design required entire cable replacement, newer design supposedly allows field repairs.)
• Failing power modules. (Limiting the output.)
  • Mainly in SK Signet equipment.
• Failed payment terminals/network
  • EA seems to use Nayax ones. (It looks like Tesla is going to use Payter in V4 sites where regulations require card readers.)
  • Vending machines have had payment terminals forever and they don't seem to have the same failure rate...
• Signet surge: Likely a bug in Signet equipment that impacts >800v vehicles with bouncing output kW.
  • If it is a bug, they should have been able to roll out a fix by now.

Again, I'm not saying that there isn't software on the charging station itself. There is plenty. And as you can see by the above, most of that is related to safety and managing the high power equipment itself. And some of those issues above are actually hardware (not software) issues.

I would think if the charger program was simple, we would not have all these FW updates and incompatibility issues. It seems to me it never ends.

The charger program is simple. The charging STATION software is certainly not. And yes, that's a huge problem (maybe a necessary evil though). Still, it seems as if the developers of this hardware and software are simply not used to consumer-facing devices and not used to making them bulletproof and ultra-reliable. I experienced my first fastcharger in 2012 and it was a real piece of garbage. The screen was absolutely unreadable in the sun, and it had an emergency off switch that looked like a regular off switch, so people would press it to stop the charge. The problem is, when this was done, someone had to come and unlock the cabinet to reset the switch before it would operate again. And that's just two human factors examples. The software that runs the payment and authentication systems on these things is similarly horrible (although fortunately back in 2012 the only vehicles that could use that station was the Nissan LEAF, and the stations were free, so we didn't have to worry about payment authorization).

 

[DonTom]

I think this is usually done by ramping up the voltage on the cable and trying to detect any shorts to ground. If it finds any, it will immediately shut down.

A few years ago, almost every CCS charger said to "Plug in First". However, if you wanted to charge an Energica motorcycle around year 2020, step one was to NEVER read the instructions on the charger when they started with "Plug in First". It would never work when plugged in first. But often all would be fine if the CCS chargers were turned on via by the app when NOT plugged in. After the CCS charger was turned on by an app, then I could plug in and start the initiation process and then the charge would start in a few more seconds.

This makes me wonder if Energica has a lower resistance to ground than other vehicles, which I assume should really be infinite. Perhaps a few megohms to ground is detected as a short in USA chargers (bike is made in Italy where things could be a little different). But I noticed lately, I really can plug in first, so something has changed at the CCS chargers. All the Energias in the USA had this issue a few years ago, so it cannot be my bike.

Save for my recent experience in Yuba City, the chargers that do work usually now do work better on my Energicas. But ChargePoint now works the best of them all. Plug in first and after 15.0 seconds (I have timed it several times) of initiation, the charge starts every time. Never have the need to disconnect and try again, which I find to be a big hassle. I have had a few chargers that I almost gave up on but worked after around ten different tries. Many times I have spent more time trying to get a CCS charger to work than the entire time the charge would take.

-Don- Reno, NV

 

[DonTom]

The charger program is simple. The charging STATION software is certainly not.

When I was referring to the "charger program" I did mean the CCS charge station, not the vehicle. In fact, I never even thought about the software in the vehicle.

-Don- Reno, NV

 

[DonTom]

The second is if the battery gets too hot to safely charge, and it will shut down the charging process.

Unfortunately, they have yet to find a good way to deal with such on motorcycles. Last summer, I made the mistake of riding my 2017 Zero SR when it was 105°F outside. I expected to have a charging problem when I lost all of my regen after around 50 miles of riding. I assumed that was because the BMS would not let the battery charge, regardless of if from regen or a real charge from a station.

Anyway, I ended up spending hours in Carson City. When it got dark, I could charge it enough to get home, around 30 miles. I will no longer ride electric motorcycles if near 100° F. Unfortunately, one of the things I like best about riding electric motorcycles in the summer is no heat from the engine. But no choice when extra hot. Or I could do what I did today, ride to around 10,000' elevation.

BTW, please read my check-in there for today. They are starting some major work there, I was lucky I was able to charge without being in the worker's way.

-Don- Reno, NV

 

[lpickup]

Anyway, I ended up spending hours in Carson City. When it got dark, I could charge it enough to get home, around 30 miles. I will no longer ride electric motorcycles if near 100° F. Unfortunately, one of the things I like best about riding electric motorcycles in the summer is no heat from the engine.

I always found that once it got above 98° the opposite of wind chill would kick in (wind heat?) The faster you ride, the hotter it gets!

 

[lpickup]

A few years ago, almost every CCS charger said to "Plug in First". However, if you wanted to charge an Energica motorcycle around year 2020, step one was to NEVER read the instructions on the charger when they started with "Plug in First". It would never work when plugged in first. But often all would be fine if the CCS chargers were turned on via by the app when NOT plugged in. After the CCS charger was turned on by an app, then I could plug in and start the initiation process and then the charge would start in a few more seconds.

The whole handshake process with non-Tesla chargers is a bit of a pain. It seems to vary by station and vehicle. Just when you think you have it figured out for a particular vehicle, you go to a different station and it works differently. That is certainly one human factors thing they need to get worked out. It should not matter whether you plug in first or not. The station should be able to handle either.

This makes me wonder if Energica has a lower resistance to ground than other vehicles, which I assume should really be infinite. Perhaps a few megohms to ground is detected as a short in USA chargers (bike is made in Italy where things could be a little different).

Perhaps I used inaccurate wording. When I say resistance to ground, I don't mean the actual earth ground, but rather just the "local" ground as seen by the charging station (which hopefully at some point is actually grounded to earth!) What I really should have said is the resistance between the two DC pins (I made the assumption that one was "ground" -- I'm an electrical engineer and we always think in terms of having one "ground reference" even if it's not actually earth ground). I don't think the the fact that the bike is Italian has any bearing on this, particularly since the vehicle should not close the contactors between the charge inlet and the battery until after this self test is complete.

Save for my recent experience in Yuba City, the chargers that do work usually now do work better on my Energicas. But ChargePoint now works the best of them all. Plug in first and after 15.0 seconds (I have timed it several times) of initiation, the charge starts every time. Never have the need to disconnect and try again, which I find to be a big hassle. I have had a few chargers that I almost gave up on but worked after around ten different tries. Many times I have spent more time trying to get a CCS charger to work than the entire time the charge would take.

My worst experience was at an EA station with our ID.4. We plugged in but were not getting the charge rate we should have. It was likely a bad DC/DC converter module in the station, but regardless, we wanted to move to a different stall. But when we did, either EA or the vehicle did not want to talk to the other. It was almost as if one way or another it thought we were still in the middle of a charging session. I fiddled with it for many minutes plugging and unplugging, activating on the app, etc. and the two just weren't talking. So then I got on with customer service, who of course took tens of minutes to finally get things going, but even that wasn't simple.

But again, sometimes I have the same kind of issue with my Bluetooth. I have an old phone that is dedicated to playing music on my Bluetooth stereo receiver. It should always be connected, and that is the only device that should be connected. But sometimes it is not, even though I haven't touched it since the day before. Usually I just have to reconnect, but occasionally something gets stuck and when I try to connect it tries and fails. I then have to go to the receiver and disconnect the phone (because it thought it was still connected) and then reconnect again from the phone. This is the kind of stuff that should just work, and needs to just work before we start releasing 100's of thousands of vehicles to the highways expecting a gas station like experience.

 

[DonTom]

The faster you ride, the hotter it gets!

Yeah, I noticed. But when my battery temp on my Energicas show yellow (high end of normal) nothing seems to help. I have even turned off all regen and coasted downhill (mostly) for around 40 miles and I could not get back into the green. The charge rate slows when in the yellow. But I figure even if I got back to green, two minutes of a DC fast charge will put it right back in the yellow anyway.

Next above yellow is red, bike will then not accept any charging and the bike will be slow down a lot in a limp mode. I have never hit the red, but I know of one guy who did when in Plam Springs on a 115° F day.

But the 2017 Zero SR I was on in Carson City does not even show battery temp. But it does show motor temperature. I think showing battery temp would be more useful. FWIW, my new 2023 Zero DSR/X does show battery temp on an analog scale, which is nice.

-Don- Reno, NV

 

[lpickup]

Actually I was talking about me personally feeling hotter, not the bike!

 

[DonTom]

That is certainly one human factors thing they need to get worked out. It should not matter whether you plug in first or not. The station should be able to handle either.

And the other hassle is to have to disconnect the heavy cable each time there is an issue. Why can't it figure how to reset without being unplugged? It's a hassle on a motorcycle to unplug and re-plug each time there is an issue.

I have yet seen any help from any phone call to customer service. The time I was in Yuba City, Dave called all the customer services for each of the chargers that would not work. It only wasted more time. Same with the very few times I called in. Either the charger works or it doesn't, has been my experience and there is nothing they can do about it at customer service. I think the most customer service can do is reboot the station, which has never helped for anybody I know.

Yeah, Bluetooth is a hassle sometimes. I find I often have to turn on and off the airplane mode to get it to work.

-Don- Reno, NV

 

[DonTom]

Actually I was talking about me personally feeling hotter, not the bike!

Oh, yeah, when the wind is hotter than the body temperature the wind can make one hotter. I was once in Death Valley in the middle of the summer on a windy day and the wind felt like a blast of very hot air. Would be cooler without the wind.

But the same can happen with a motorcycle battery. The wind has to be cooler than the battery temp and hot for an EV battery is not all that hot to begin with.

Electric motorcycles are great when the temps are great for riding. It's the extremes that cause an issue. I figure the batteries like about the same temps we do. For now, they certainly have more issues than ICE motorcycles when things are not perfect.

Cars have ways to deal with this, motorcycles don't have the room and they try harder to keep the weight down. Perhaps the answer will be in a better designed and lighter battery that can handle the temp extremes better. Perhaps won't happen in my lifetime, but a lot of people are trying to improve EV batteries. If there is a way, they will discover it someday.

-Don- Reno, NV

 

[DonTom]

Today, I got a chance to watch the very end of the charge of my Energica Experia on CCS which started charging up at 20 KW and also the 3.3KW AC charger in the bike, which started charging at the 3.3 KW.

The difference in that last few seconds before the charge shuts off is a lot less than I remembered. With the 20 KW CCS charger, the bike was at 3.3 KW just before the charger shut down. But with the 3.3KW AC to DC charger, it was at 1.1KW.

But if the battery is accepting whatever it can when in the CV stage, why is there any difference at all? It is still three times as fast at the last few seconds when on CCS.

And does cell balancing have something to do with this?

-Don- Reno, NV