Are broken CCS chargers ever repaired??

[DonTom]

I just now realized of all the CCS chargers that I am aware of that have broken over the last couple of years, not even one of them have been repaired. Not counting short times down for an update and needing a reboot that the property owner can do and small stuff like that.

Does anybody, anywhere, fix broken CCS chargers? Or do they always just let them rot away when they once break with a serious problem?

Perhaps because many of the broken ones are the free ones, such as both at Donnor Summit on I-80 in CA, or the free one in Hawthorne, NV. Perhaps no money for maintenance where they cannot make profit. I wish those were at least replaced with ones they can charge money for, if they could be kept working. The free is NOT the issue here. But even many others, such as the only charger at Incline Village, NV has not been broken for almost a year. And that is an EV-Go. Same with the one at Kingville, CA. Another EV-Go broken for many months. And these were not all that cheap to use.

That I can go to places on my electric motorcycles three years ago that I cannot go to today, is a bit ridiculous, IMO. And I don't think any of them work at the Harley shops anymore.

We may have more chargers today, but mostly in areas where they are grouped together and do little good for a long trip. The important locations either never had CCS or now have a broken one which is not being repaired.

OTOH, I never even heard of a Tesla location that could not be used for Tesla. Notice the "10" at every location on Plugshare. Then notice the "1" for many of the CCS stations, such as the one at Rye Patch State Park, east of Lovelock, NV.

I wish things were as good with CCS as they were three years ago! At least for me.

One very good fix will be when I can charge my Energicas on a Tesla Supercharger. So far, the only reliable fast charger, IMO. And that is what I need the least these days, even though I also own a Tesla. Charged on the road three times since I purchased it new in 2018. Not like my shorter range Energicas, where charge on the road every time I ride them.

Less of an issue when I ride my 2023 Energica Experia as it has a freeway range of more than 100 miles. But even if I can make it up to Susanville, CA, I would have to wait seven hours to charge on a J-1772. No CCS up there at all, none on the way. There is a Wal*Mart in Susanville, but of course no CCS in such a needed location. But there are Tesla Superchargers in Susanville.

And of course, Tesla only has the Magic Dock where it is not at all needed, such as Placerville, CA, a mile from real working CCS rhat will charge my Energicas three times as fast. Only 8KW when I tried Placerville, 24 KW when I use the CCS a mile away.


-Don- Reno, NV

 

[lpickup]

The answer to your question varies by provider, but in general, even for the providers that are doing better than others, the answer is not good (yet). In the best case, other providers are scrambling to expand so fast and still trying to figure out their business model that I don't believe they've grown their service organizations to match, or worse yet (and more likely) they are relying on subcontractors to perform maintenance, and those organizations have not yet scaled up in size or expertise to be able to keep up.

Compare that with Tesla, that had all the advantages of not caring (as much) about the business case as they were not trying to make money on the Supercharger network (in fact, running it at a loss at first), and they maintained full control over not just the hardware, but the repair & maintenance teams. So they were able to keep up (more or less) with the demands of any failing equipment (which also was easier considering the relative simplicity of their equipment). And with their current scale, they can efficiently deploy teams to maintain Superchargers in each geographical region (as well as be familiar with the issues that arise).

So let's take a look at the various non-Tesla networks. Some of this is speculation on my part, but I think it's probably more or less accurate.

Electrify America: Even with their reputation as having a crappy network, they are probably one of the better examples out there due to their quickly growing scale. And they are taking a proactive approach now to replacing lousy hardware that was probably rushed to market. Still they're still mostly focused on growth so are lagging behind on the repair and maintenance front; they are also dealing with lousy hardware and I don't think their service teams are 100% up to speed with the equipment.

EVgo: Technically they've been around longer than EA, but have been expanding much more slowly. Their hardware doesn't seem quite as bad as EA's, but it's still kind of bad. They have undertaken an effort (their Renew program) to turn over a new leaf so to say. While admirable in intent, the rollout of this program has had flaws. Some sites just up and close without warning. Others are taken down for weeks (at least they are pretty good about keeping reasonable timelines) while the new hardware is installed rather than trying to keep at least one station up during the replacement -- I realize logistically it may be difficult to do otherwise). But as a whole, EVgo still acts like a small provider that doesn't have the maintenance resources available to properly service their equipment. I'm now worried that without GM's support (if they do in fact pull out of their agreement with EVgo) that it's not going to get much better.

ChargePoint: Here's the deal with ChargePoint: for most of their stations, it's the host's responsibility to call ChargePoint out to repair stations, and I believe this is at the host's expense (unless still under warranty). Hosts that were initially drawn to put in a single ChargePoint station quickly lost interest in maintaining it once that first repair bill came due, and instead decided to simply let the machine site their inoperable. I bet that most of the stations you see that go unrepaired are ChargePoint units.

Car dealerships: The vast majority of car dealerships never wanted the charging stations to begin with. Many use ChargePoint (see above) and definitely fall into the category of not calling in a repair of the machine fails (they probably see that as a blessing). I actually don't blame them much for their attitude. I don't actually think dealerships are an appropriate venue for charging stations (other than for their own sales & service use). It would probably be best if they didn't pretend they were offering public charging and simply never made their stations public in the first place. Harley dealers mostly fall into this category, but they actually seem a bit more welcoming on the whole (which is even more surprising since I get the sense that most of the people using their stations are not motorcycle riders!)

Shell Recharge: I think the jury is out on this one. They seem to have the financial backing to do a good job, and from what I've seen they do address issues relatively promptly. That said, they are small enough that it's hard to gauge how good (or bad) a job they are doing. They certainly are a far cry better than Greenlots that was more or less hands off on the equipment (which was really lousy equipment to start with).

 

[DonTom]

I bet that most of the stations you see that go unrepaired are ChargePoint units.

Only the older CP units, such as the one in Hawthorne, NV, (or Fallon, NV where the owner refuses to have it repaired). I find the newer CPs to be the most reliable of all, not counting the issues I had with ChargePoint's version 7.5.0.18 FW. And they upgraded very fast to the version 7.5.0.22 which works perfectly on my Energicas. Lots of very old ChargePoint machines are out of service, I assume for the reasons you stated. But CP has many newer ones, and I don't think I have seen ANY of the newer units down. Some other issues that have nothing to do with CP, such as all roads blocked to the ChargePoint in Garnerville, NV because of road construction. But perhaps since they are new, they are still in warranty. But even when in warranty, will they get repaired if they do break? I have been wondering if anybody repairs CCS anywhere when they fail. It certainly seems like they are NEVER repaired. I cannot think of a broken one that has been repaired of all the CCS chargers I have used over the years.

Perhaps EV-Connect has the same issues as CP, such as the very old CCS unit in Middlegate, NV which has not worked since Dec 2022.

I have to give EV-Connect credit for putting many CCS stations on Hwy 50 in NV. Don't need Middlegate, as working CCS chargers ten miles east of there at the Cold Springs Station restaurant.

I have used a couple of Shell Recharge with no issues.

-Don- Reno, NV


Perhaps

 

[DonTom]

I recently purchased a 2023 Zero DSR/X motorcycle (I now own five electric motorcycles). This Zero DSR/S has 6.6KW AC charging only. No DC fast charging. With the number of DC fast chargers out of service, I am finding this bike much more useful to get places than my Energicas that can only charge at 3KW on AC (but 25 KW on CCS). And just about every place I go has free AC charging.

Many places that have a broken CCS charger for years, still have a working AC charge station. Places such as Fallon, NV or Middlegate, NV. Countless other places, have J-1772 or a Tesla Destination charge station with no CCS nearby.

I always bring a Tesla-Tap.

Useful AC charging starts at six KW, IMO, when on the road. I rode my Zero DSR/X 300 miles yesterday, all my charging was for free, other than my home charge that I started out with which cost me 17 cents per KWH.

In Bridgeport, CA where gas is now $6.59 per gallon of regular. I charged for free here, just across the street where I had my dinner. Bike was charged to 110% by the time I was done eating. This bike can charge up to 120%, when selected. It lets me charge close to the max capacity of the battery instead of only the normal nominal capacity. Not to be used too often (hard on battery), only for longer rides between charge stations. My next charge was here in Garnerville, NV, when I really needed the break from the long ride.

BTW, I first started to charge here, also for free, but I decided to move the bike to the restaurant that I would have dinner in.

Bridgeport does have CCS, but I went the scenic way and charged up here before Bridgeport. Was a very nice ride with no concerns of broken CCS chargers.

-Don- Reno, NV

 

[ArtiePenguin1]

Useful AC charging starts at six KW, IMO, when on the road. I rode my Zero DSR/X 300 miles yesterday, all my charging was for free, other than my home charge that I started out with which cost me 17 cents per KWH.

I agree that 6 kW is adequate when it comes to motorcycles, cars, crossovers, and most SUVs. However, 6 kW is inadequate for any EV trucks or large SUVs -- even for an overnight charge. A 100 kWh battery barely replenishes 72% overnight after a 12 hour charge (72 kWh) from a 6 kW charger. Most EV trucks have a battery around 150 or 200 kWh.

For future proofing, I think the minimum should be 40 amp chargers (which is 9.6 kW at 240 V and 8.3 kW at the common commercial 208 V).
---
Regarding the original topic of broken CCS chargers, BTC Power equipment has historically been quite terrible. Most of their units produced until 2020 have poor reliability. I just tried to charge yesterday at a Shell Recharge BTC Power HPC unit in Council Bluffs, Iowa and my session wouldn't initiate. I kept getting Error_Code_F. The phone support reps were totally inept and unable to even know what the error meant. Shell Recharge must have even worse remote access to their chargers compared to Electrify America. Shell couldn't even see the error message I incurred, all they saw on their end was that the station was in use. I'm really lucky that I didn't need to charge and was just testing the charger.

Overall, I'm now wary of Shell Recharge and my view of old BTC Power equipment being junk has solidified. My experience is documented below in the embedded X/Twitter post.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1688711303542472704

 

[DonTom]

I agree that 6 kW is adequate when it comes to motorcycles, cars, crossovers, and most SUVs. However, 6 kW is inadequate for any EV trucks or large SUVs -- even for an overnight charge. A 100 kWh battery barely replenishes 72% overnight after a 12 hour charge (72 kWh) from a 6 kW charger. Most EV trucks have a battery around 150 or 200 kWh.

For future proofing, I think the minimum should be 40 amp chargers (which is 9.6 kW at 240 V and 8.3 kW at the common commercial 208 V).
---
Regarding the original topic of broken CCS chargers, BTC Power equipment has historically been quite terrible. Most of their units produced until 2020 have poor reliability. I just tried to charge yesterday at a Shell Recharge BTC Power HPC unit in Council Bluffs, Iowa and my session wouldn't initiate. I kept getting Error_Code_F. The phone support reps were totally inept and unable to even know what the error meant. Shell Recharge must have even worse remote access to their chargers compared to Electrify America. Shell couldn't even see the error message I incurred, all they saw on their end was that the station was in use. I'm really lucky that I didn't need to charge and was just testing the charger.

Overall, I'm now wary of Shell Recharge and my view of old BTC Power equipment being junk has solidified. My experience is documented below in the embedded X/Twitter post.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1688711303542472704

Did you notice the ratings on the J-1772 station I used here? 80 amps! At 240 VAC that will be 19.2KW. The highest I have ever seen for a J-1772. On my Zero DSR/X motorcycle, I can add a 6.6 KW charger (for more than 3K$) and the bike would then charge at 13.2 KW. If more J-plugs would support such, I would go for it. But most J plugs can only handle around 7 KW.

Do you ever expect to see those BTC chargers to be repaired or replaced? In NV, I am still waiting to see just one CCS of any make be repaired or replaced.

But at least they added four new CCS chargers to the southern part of Carson City. Before those, it was just the one EV-GO at the northern end of CC.

-Don- Reno, NV

 

[ArtiePenguin1]

Tom, I thought I sent my reply to you a few days ago but I must have forgotten to click "post reply". Anyways, apologies for the delay.

Did you notice the ratings on the J-1772 station I used here? 80 amps!

80 amp installs in public are quite rare. I hope they become more common, especially if one 80 amp output can be split across two ports for 40 amps each. Most EVs today have a 48 amp max AC charge rate, so 40 amps would come pretty close to fully utilizing that.

I saw an 80 amp charger listed across the street from my hotel in Wichita, Kansas but I didn't bother to check it out.

Do you ever expect to see those BTC chargers to be repaired or replaced? In NV, I am still waiting to see just one CCS of any make be repaired or replaced.

I'm not sure, there seems to be a nationwide backlog of parts for BTC Power chargers.

 

[DonTom]

Tom, I thought I sent my reply to you a few days ago but I must have forgotten to click "post reply". Anyways, apologies for the delay.

80 amp installs in public are quite rare. I hope they become more common, especially if one 80 amp output can be split across two ports for 40 amps each. Most EVs today have a 48 amp max AC charge rate, so 40 amps would come pretty close to fully utilizing that.

I saw an 80 amp charger listed across the street from my hotel in Wichita, Kansas but I didn't bother to check it out.

I'm not sure, there seems to be a nationwide backlog of parts for BTC Power chargers.

All the 70 & 80-amp J-1772s I have seen only have one charge cable. 70-Amp J-plugs are here. There, you can see my 2017 Zero SR charging at 8KW using external chargers.

Do you know what CCS charger parts are difficult to get?

Yesterday, I was in Eurocycles here in Reno, a local motorcycle shop, where I purchased my 2023 Zero DSR/X last month. In their service area is a sign that reads something like "Because of the worldwide parts shortage, we will no longer service any motorcycles that are more than ten years old--no exceptions".

I wonder when things will be back to normal.

-Don- Reno, NV

 

[lpickup]

I can add a 6.6 KW charger (for more than 3K$) and the bike would then charge at 13.2 KW.

Are you saying that you can add a second on board charger to the bike and it will work in parallel with the existing one? That's interesting. Early Tesla Model S (and X?) had such a feature, but Tesla ultimately abandoned it.

 

[DonTom]

Are you saying that you can add a second on board charger to the bike and it will work in parallel with the existing one? That's interesting. Early Tesla Model S (and X?) had such a feature, but Tesla ultimately abandoned it.

Yes, many of the Zero models have room for either an extra charger or an extra smaller battery, but not both. The extra battery is 25% of the size of the main battery so it gives another 25% range. The other choice is to double up on the AC charger, which, IMO, is the better idea of the two. The extra battery costs more than the extra charger and the extra battery is a lot heavier than the extra AC charger, making the bike more top heavy.

They call the extra battery the "Power tank". They call the extra AC charger the "Charge Tank". If you have neither, then you have extra handy storage in those same areas. So no matter what is done, it is at a cost of more than just money. But it is nice to have the three choices.

What would work best for me is an external charger that I can bring as needed, but that is not made. It would be difficult to use the charge tank as external because the bike has to be programmed to know if it exists or not.

My Energica has very little space for anything if the sidebags and travel trunk is not used, as it has a large battery for an electric motorcycle. 22.5 KWH of battery. The Zero DSR/X has a 17.3 KWH battery, 21.625 KWH if power tank is added at the cost of the extra storage space.
Those are max capacities, not nominal. The Zero DSR/ X will let me charge to 110% SOC if I select such while charging. IOW, will go into the area that is normally not used and is hard on the battery. The Energica will not let me do that. So if the power tank is added to the Zero DSR/X and I charge to 110% SOC, both bikes will have very close to the same range.

On the Zero DSR/X, If I charge to 110% it will say 110% for the SOC%. I get a little more than ten miles increased freeway range by selecting the "extended range charging" to 110% while it is charging. The default is to only charge to 100% SOC. I assume with the powertank, it still shows as 110% SOC, but then I will get another 25% of added range.

The charging to 110% SOC is best to only do while home. As it takes forever to charge when even close to 100% SOC.

Zeros use a low voltage battery that is not compatible with CCS. It has less than a 120 VDC battery. Energica uses 360 VDC, so CCS is fine with it.

I wonder how well it would work if they abandoned all DC fast chargers and put very large AC chargers in all EVs, and we had all AC charge stations that could do a few hundred amps. That would solve just about every compatibility issue. One standard. The EV itself could take care of the rest by matching its own charger to the battery. They keep on making those AC chargers smaller and smaller and also more efficient. I think the AC charger in my Energica Experia is liquid cooled. No fan. But I think I hear the water pump running while charging. It mainly uses the coolant for the motor inverter, but it can be used for more.

Didn't Tesla use very high current AC to begin with? I see a lot of old Tesla Destination chargers that are somewhat high current, such as 14 and 18 KW (75 amp) yet I think no new Teslsa can accept more than 12KW. Perhaps they took AC charging a lot more serious before that had such a great Supercharger network.

-Don- Reno, NV

 

[Falcon73]

ChargePoint: Here's the deal with ChargePoint: for most of their stations, it's the host's responsibility to call ChargePoint out to repair stations, and I believe this is at the host's expense (unless still under warranty). Hosts that were initially drawn to put in a single ChargePoint station quickly lost interest in maintaining it once that first repair bill came due, and instead decided to simply let the machine site their inoperable. I bet that most of the stations you see that go unrepaired are ChargePoint units.

Knowing this, I don't know how CP could ever hope to approach 100% reliability.

 

[lpickup]

Knowing this, I don't know how CP could ever hope to approach 100% reliability.

Exactly! It's either going to take a dramatic change in their business model/relationship with hosts, or they will have to redefine what they mean by "reliability".

 

[DonTom]

New news from EV-Go.

Should we believe it?

-Don- Reno, NV